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October 17, 2011

213

Congress: SB3002S19, Congressional Boundaries Designation, by Rep. Ipson

SB3002S19

Deviation From Ideal Population

Largest District: 0.00% (+1 person)

Smallest District: -0.00% (-0 people)

19th Sub. S.B. 3002, sponsored by Representative Don Ipson.

SB3002S19 (KMZ file)

  • http://www.facebook.com/DaveGarber1975 David Edward Garber

    I’ve commented about many other variants of this concept, and have nothing further to say about it at this time.  It’s still not-very-sensible, in my view. In any case, here are some links to its previous incarnations…

    * SB3002: http://www.redistrictutah.com/maps/sb3002
    * SB3002S02: http://www.redistrictutah.com/maps/sb3002s02
    * SB3002S10: http://www.redistrictutah.com/maps/sb3002s10
    * SB3002S11: http://www.redistrictutah.com/maps/sb3002s11
    * SB3002S13: http://www.redistrictutah.com/maps/sb3002s13
    * SB3002S16: http://www.redistrictutah.com/maps/sb3002s16
    * SB3002S18: http://www.redistrictutah.com/maps/sb3002s18

    • Jeanne

      I still haven’t met a single person other than elected Republicans who thought the urban rural mix up this whole charade this map was based on was a good idea.  In fact at several of the public meetings I attended in rural southern Utah people were nearly begging lawmakers not to do it.  Yet here we are.  I think they just start to believe their own BS at a certain point and no amount of reasoning can pull them back to a reasonable state of thinking. 

  • Cptreft

    If any state Legislator is reading this, let me be very clear. NO WAY IN  HELL! I still believe in the McAdams-Cox map

    • http://www.facebook.com/DaveGarber1975 David Edward Garber

      I like Cox’s concept second to my own concept and, as such, I feel pleased that it hasn’t died yet.

      Harper’s single-doughnut-hole concept perhaps has some merit, also, I think, as does King’s other concept of a triple-doughnut-hole, although I’m far from sold on including one vast “and-everything-else” district in this latter case.

      I’m glad that other concepts (such as Litvack’s and Newbold’s) haven’t gotten as much traction.

  • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

    Really? Splitting up Sanpete County? I swear each one of these maps is worse than the last one. I won’t waste my time on this one, because like Mr. Garber I’ve already expressed my thoughts several times on similar maps, but I will address the differences.

    Really, cutting Santiquin in half, cutting literally just a few houses of Payson off from the rest, the already mentioned chopping of Northern and Southern Sanpete County. It seems as if they took the original map and worked to find ways to make it even more awkward and chop up more communities.

  • http://twitter.com/AlexGilvarry Alex Gilvarry

    Why do they even bother offering new maps when nothing is getting better? Has anyone actually looked what Mr. Garber has suggested? It’s pretty great.

    • http://www.facebook.com/DaveGarber1975 David Edward Garber

      Thanks, Alex!  I’d hoped that its logic would speak for itself, although I and others spoke on its behalf, anyway—but it seems that too many of Utah’s legislators have persistently remained a bit deaf to it.

      • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

        It’s logic DID speak for itself, which is exactly why the legislature didn’t go with it. It made too much sense and didn’t go with their preconceived wishes.

        • http://www.facebook.com/DaveGarber1975 David Edward Garber

          Perhaps so, Tyler!  Well, at least we tried our best…

  • Brandon Plewe

    the representatives who complained abouT Kings map splitting 7 cities and 3 counties voted for this map, which divides 14 cities and 5 counties. Outright hypocrisy. And I’m a republican, or just was.

    • http://www.facebook.com/DaveGarber1975 David Edward Garber

      I’m still a Republican, but I feel terribly disappointed by many Utahn Republican legislators’ behavior today, although I largely support the same platform that they allegedly do.  I note that neither party exercised a monopoly on such outrageous behavior during this process, and I applaud those exceptions among both parties who stood firmly against their peers’ poor behavior.

    • Anonymous

      Check out LDS democrats they won’t be hating on Mormons!

      • Anonymous

        There are a lot of Dems here that hate Mormons. That’s because their collectivist values don’t match with LDS beliefs. Just look at some of the comments here! You are trying to rework Mormonism to match your ideology. Try doing the opposite! (see D&C 1: 16; then also D&C1:14) But that would require some humility!

        Progressivism is not compatible with individual freedom, our divinely-inspired Constitution, free enterprise, or Christianity. It will destroy them all!

  • http://twitter.com/TySpace Tyler Riggs

    Not that the Legislature gave the public time for input on this…but here goes.

    This map is terrible. This is an injustice. 

    I was a member of the Utah Republican Party. I cannot be a part of this hypocrisy any more. The Utah GOP is not acting in the interests of the people of the state, rather only in the interests of cloak and dagger power consolidation. This is the final nail in the coffin of corruption that includes HB477, and Gary Herbert’s sweetheart UDOT deal. 

    This Utah GOP is a party of corruption, hypocrisy, and is absolutely not the limited government conservative body is proclaims to be. 

    Everyone who votes for a map that even closely resembles this is an embarrassment to their office. Shame on you.

    Tyler Riggs
    West Valley City
    Former Republican

    • Anonymous

      Check out LDS democrats. They won’t be hatin if your a Mormon !

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1219000860 John Mulholland

        Are those the guys who were raffling conference tickets?

        • Anonymous

          No money was involved just a name in the hat. I would have liked to go and sit in the tickets president Ukdorf gave us but I didn’t win. President Monson couldn’t win in Utah county if he ran as a democrat their that’s how out of touch utah county has gotten

          • Anonymous

            It’s YOU who are out of touch, Verango! With the Church itself, and its leaders!

          • Anonymous

            Like Harry Reid would do here’s my temple recommend relax!

          • Anonymous

            Harry Reid is a tare amongst the wheat! He will have a very tough interview at the last day when he stands before his Maker. Are you  putting yourself in the same category then?

          • Anonymous

            I think your understanding of the gospel is limited to your capacity to understand. So what ever I say here is irrelevant. But my point is has become clear to me. If president Monson ran as a democratic or when they call Harry Reid as an apostle you won’t be able to support it. Your limited testimony would surely be shaken to its core.

          • Anonymous

            You are making erroneous assumptions about me. You apprently see yourself as a mind-reader, since you think you know about the strength of my testimony without even knowing me. I have a lifetime of service in the Church that stands as testament to my
            “testimony”.
            I’m NOT a Republican, and I HAVE voted for Democrats at various times in the past. Another one of your false assumptions burst by reality! Thus, the premise of your assumption is WRONG! I vote for principles, NOT parties.
            The entire premise of your argument is also erroneous. You fabricate an imaginary straw man to try to make your point. Pres. Monson is NOT running as  a Democrat, and Harry Reid ISN’T an apostle. When you begin with a false premise, you will logically end with a false conclusion! You end up rationalizing your own error in “understanding” by beginning with false premises. That’s not a fault in MY understanding. It’s a gap in yours!

          • Anonymous

            You are making erroneous assumptions about me. You apprently see yourself as a mind-reader, since you think you know about the strength of my testimony without even knowing me. I have a lifetime of service in the Church that stands as testament to my
            “testimony”.
            I’m NOT a Republican, and I HAVE voted for Democrats at various times in the past. Another one of your false assumptions burst by reality! Thus, the premise of your assumption is WRONG! I vote for principles, NOT parties.
            The entire premise of your argument is also erroneous. You fabricate an imaginary straw man to try to make your point. Pres. Monson is NOT running as  a Democrat, and Harry Reid ISN’T an apostle. When you begin with a false premise, you will logically end with a false conclusion! You end up rationalizing your own error in “understanding” by beginning with false premises. That’s not a fault in MY understanding. It’s a gap in yours!

          • Anonymous

            You are making erroneous assumptions about me. You apprently see yourself as a mind-reader, since you think you know about the strength of my testimony without even knowing me. I have a lifetime of service in the Church that stands as testament to my
            “testimony”.
            I’m NOT a Republican, and I HAVE voted for Democrats at various times in the past. Another one of your false assumptions burst by reality! Thus, the premise of your assumption is WRONG! I vote for principles, NOT parties.
            The entire premise of your argument is also erroneous. You fabricate an imaginary straw man to try to make your point. Pres. Monson is NOT running as  a Democrat, and Harry Reid ISN’T an apostle. When you begin with a false premise, you will logically end with a false conclusion! You end up rationalizing your own error in “understanding” by beginning with false premises. That’s not a fault in MY understanding. It’s a gap in yours!

          • Anonymous

            You are making erroneous assumptions about me. You apprently see yourself as a mind-reader, since you think you know about the strength of my testimony without even knowing me. I have a lifetime of service in the Church that stands as testament to my
            “testimony”.
            I’m NOT a Republican, and I HAVE voted for Democrats at various times in the past. Another one of your false assumptions burst by reality! Thus, the premise of your assumption is WRONG! I vote for principles, NOT parties.
            The entire premise of your argument is also erroneous. You fabricate an imaginary straw man to try to make your point. Pres. Monson is NOT running as  a Democrat, and Harry Reid ISN’T an apostle. When you begin with a false premise, you will logically end with a false conclusion! You end up rationalizing your own error in “understanding” by beginning with false premises. That’s not a fault in MY understanding. It’s a gap in yours!

          • Anonymous

            You are making erroneous assumptions about me. You apprently see yourself as a mind-reader, since you think you know about the strength of my testimony without even knowing me. I have a lifetime of service in the Church that stands as testament to my
            “testimony”.
            I’m NOT a Republican, and I HAVE voted for Democrats at various times in the past. Another one of your false assumptions burst by reality! Thus, the premise of your assumption is WRONG! I vote for principles, NOT parties.
            The entire premise of your argument is also erroneous. You fabricate an imaginary straw man to try to make your point. Pres. Monson is NOT running as  a Democrat, and Harry Reid ISN’T an apostle. When you begin with a false premise, you will logically end with a false conclusion! You end up rationalizing your own error in “understanding” by beginning with false premises. That’s not a fault in MY understanding. It’s a gap in yours!

          • http://www.facebook.com/safiyyah.parshall Safiyyah Cherie Parshall

            Whatever you think of Harry Reid, he is a good Mormon, and you’ve no right to dispute that ignorantly. http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/03/31/6506/

      • Anonymous

        Most LDS are conservatives BECAUSE of their religion, not in SPITE of it!

        Remarks, by President Brigham Young, in the Tabernacle, in
        Great Salt Lake City, Sunday, December 23, 1866., Journal of Discourses, 26
        vols., 11:, p.278:

        “I will ask the question: Do you think the Father and the Son
        are agreed in their political views and their financial operations? Why every
        Christian in the world says yes, and we say yes; and we cannot be one, in the
        sense Jesus prayed for us to be, without this.”

        Joseph Smith also declared that members of the faith would never be deceived if they stayed with the main body of the church members. By encouraging members to leave the philosophical and political main body of the Church, you are revealing to us who you really are — a wolf in sheep’s clothing!

        The Democrat Party is the party of progressivism, according to Barack Obama, which is just another collectivist cousin of Marxism, communism, and socialism. They are just different iterations of the same ideology that dismisses individual liberty for the collective instead. Virtually every LDS prophet has spoken out against the evils of collectivism, beginning with Joseph Smith himself.

        • Anonymous

          OMG, You are an idiot!!!!

          • Anonymous

            Can’t rebut me, so you can only engage in vitriol? You’ve revealed yourself here, not me! What does it say about YOU that you blasphemously reference the Almighty in calling me names? Now I know what force guides your thinking! It isn’t divine!

        • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

          Dear god, I don’t want to live on this planet anymore. Some people are so deluded by nonsense it makes me sick to my stomach.

        • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

          Freedom of speech does not include freedom from criticism.

          The above comment by Sbenard is a vile and disgusting example of Mormon arrogance.  How dare you look down your long pointy nose and link (directly or indirectly) the Democratic Party and “Satan’s plan”!?!

          I find the above comment completely offensive, and I demand an apology.

          What part of The Golden Rule does this hypocrite NOT understand?

          • Anonymous

            David, if you’re looking for “vile and arrogant”, read your own comment and go look in the mirror. That’s where you’ll see it! My comment was quotations by LDS leaders. Yours? Ridicule, reviling, and pure arrogant hatred. You ARE what you accused ME of being. Can’t rebut my quotes? You engage in name-calling and labeling instead!

            I demand and apology from YOU! You are the very personification of what you tried to label me as. You revealed you OWN character, not mine!

          • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

            Sadly, your comment indicates that you are arrogant and self-deceived.  You have no credibility.  You are an example of why individuals who are not members of the Green Jell-O Fan Club hold people like you in such low regard.  Sometimes the truth hurts.  Deal with it.

          • Anonymous

            Once again, you can’t argue your point, so you engage in derision and ridicule? What does that say about you? Please look at your own “arrogance and self-deception”. YOUR comment, David, reveal nothing about ME. It reveals only YOU! It is a mirror on who you are that you can’t engage me in reason or rebut my comments. You instead resort to throwing insults?
            Your slanderous and reviling language only undermines your own credibility, not mine! It goes to character, your honor. You can’t make your point without derision? “Green Jell-O Fan Club”? What kind of argument, case, or persuasion is that?
            Make your case. State your opinion. I’ll agree with it or rebut it. But don’t engage me with ridicule, because that destroys YOUR credibility, not mine!

          • Anonymous

            Once again, you can’t argue your point, so you engage in derision and ridicule? What does that say about you? Please look at your own “arrogance and self-deception”. YOUR comment, David, reveal nothing about ME. It reveals only YOU! It is a mirror on who you are that you can’t engage me in reason or rebut my comments. You instead resort to throwing insults?
            Your slanderous and reviling language only undermines your own credibility, not mine! It goes to character, your honor. You can’t make your point without derision? “Green Jell-O Fan Club”? What kind of argument, case, or persuasion is that?
            Make your case. State your opinion. I’ll agree with it or rebut it. But don’t engage me with ridicule, because that destroys YOUR credibility, not mine!

          • Alliegator321

            sbenard- you quoted church leaders from A LONG TIME AGO.  Do you follow every word every church leader has ever said?  It would be pretty tricky, considering they’ve said contradictory things.  I love the gospel, but people like you give the rest of us a bad name.  Try this quote from mormon.org (you may also have heard it read over the pulpit just before any election)… “Principles compatible with the gospel are found in the platforms of all major political parties.”

          • just a kid…

            The LDS leaders are not the LDS people. from what i gather from your post. you are saying that all LDS people take a specific stance on politics. But the truth is that people don’t always agree with how their leaders see things. for example, some LDS believe that you have to be married to the opposite sex in order to get to the highest kingdom where as many many people belive that that is not the case. so by saying that Joseph Smith said this or Brigham Young said that. SOME LDS are conservative but its NOT because of their Religion. people shape their own views based on what they believe and they believe what they believe because of personal experiences or through research. but what do i know? i am a 16 year old kid…

          • http://www.facebook.com/safiyyah.parshall Safiyyah Cherie Parshall

            Man, there is no definite statement on politics that is unchangeable in Mormonism. Read this, approved by the Mormon Apostles of 1939: http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/
            “Or, perhaps the government will devise a permanent program of work
            projects for the unemployed on a more satisfactory basis than now
            exists. Or, maybe, an entirely different economic system will evolve out
            of our difficulties, based on the principles of cooperation, with more
            emphasis on economic security, and less emphasis on profits, expansion
            and exploitation.”

          • Anonymous

            It really is not worth sharing with sbenard.  He is your typical LDS rebublican who has been brainwashed to believe one way, and only one way.   No intelligent conversation can ever change his mind (or lack of mind).  He only has ears so he can hear himself talk. 

          • Anonymous

            Your taking offense and using incendiary words like “vile” and “disgusting” and then demanding an “apology” for a thusly-concocted “offense” is a function of your pride, not my words. You know, “stick and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me”?
            Isaiah warned us about people in the last days of the earth’s history who would make a person “an offender for a word”. (see Isaiah 29:21) Congrats! You just fulfilled Isaiah’s prophecy!
            If you’re looking for hypocrisy, go look in the mirror. You language is — bar none — THE most offensive, vile, and disgusting on this page! Your faux grievance reveals your own nature, not mine!

          • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

            A bit late to the party?

        • Waterlogs

          So much for any kind of lucidity of the problem when all you can do is spit out mormon book quotes!  This has nothing at all to do with church, remember your 1st amendment rights!  Equal justice under the Constitution of the United States.  Fair is fair!

        • jay

          sbenard- Be quiet. As a staunch conservative and a life-long member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I subscribe to a principle taught by Jesus Christ, “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” Matthew 7:2 It is not your place to condemn people as irrevocably bound for hell-fire. I am ashamed that you would engage in this kind of hateful speech. People can have differing points of view. Let them. Disagree with them. But do not condemn them for disagreeing with you.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Now this is the viewpoint I sincerely respect. While I disagree with the teachings of the LDS Church, that doesn’t mean that I can’t get along quite well with its members, and would hope to be treated the same. Someone like this is someone that could sit down and have a decent argument with those who disagree, rather than automatically shunning them. Thank you.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Now this is the viewpoint I sincerely respect. While I disagree with the teachings of the LDS Church, that doesn’t mean that I can’t get along quite well with its members, and would hope to be treated the same. Someone like this is someone that could sit down and have a decent argument with those who disagree, rather than automatically shunning them. Thank you.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Now this is the viewpoint I sincerely respect. While I disagree with the teachings of the LDS Church, that doesn’t mean that I can’t get along quite well with its members, and would hope to be treated the same. Someone like this is someone that could sit down and have a decent argument with those who disagree, rather than automatically shunning them. Thank you.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Now this is the viewpoint I sincerely respect. While I disagree with the teachings of the LDS Church, that doesn’t mean that I can’t get along quite well with its members, and would hope to be treated the same. Someone like this is someone that could sit down and have a decent argument with those who disagree, rather than automatically shunning them. Thank you.

          • Anonymous

            Interesting, Jay, that you would consider quoting LDS prophets as “condemn/ing/ people as irrevocably bound for hell-fire” and “hateful speech”. Nothing in my words was hateful or condemning anyone to hell-fire. You can’t possibly quote me or twist my words to say that! Your quoting — out of context, I might add — Matt 7 is, on the other hand, judgmental by nature. It’s just a way of judging by spouting scripture on the subject of judgement.
            We are forced, by nature of every-day living, to make judgments. Dallin Oaks has given a Conference address on this topic.
            We have the power and right to choose our political philosophies and votes. We do NOT, however, have the right to evade accountability for them. That is, I believe, the point of Brigham Young’s teaching in the quote I cited. He’s making the point that if we are to become more godly in nature, we must come to think as God does — including the the realm of what constitutes the proper role of government! We will all ultimately be held accountable for those choices. My reference to that isn’t a pre-judgment of anyone; it is a recognition of fact!

        • Kendall Frazier

          You’re not really LDS, are you?

        • high uintas

          I’d say that you need to “study progressivism” from a reality based source, rather than one that is pushing an agenda. I could say that conservatives are first cousins to fascists if I read only one point of view. Your use of the term “the Democrat Party’ instead of it’s real name, the Democratic Party tells me that you are a loyal viewer and listener of right wing media outlets. 

          My great, great grandfather came here with Brigham Young, my great grandfather was born in Nauvoo. Church member have not always been tied to a party the way the are now. They came here and established communities that more resembled communes that not, in a way they were socialists. They lived outside of established morality of the day by practicing the Principal and only gave it up by force.

          But, if you don’t know your real history and if you belong to an organization who willingly will change it’s own history to make itself look better it’s easy to believe that red is blue and up is down. It’s a shame.

          • Anonymous

            Your assumptions are fraught with error. When you make assumptions based upon a false premises, you end up with false assumptions.
            I purchased various books on progressive philosophy. Some were written by university professors as textbooks and are used throughout colleges and universities in the United States. How many books on progressivism have YOU studied? Yeah, I thought so!

            Just spouting your Utah history doesn’t say anything about commitment to the “Principles” which those people stood for. I could have spouted my own Utah history — my great, great, great grandmother that emigrated to Utah in the 1860′s — but I didn’t, because it really isn’t relevant to whether we adhere to the principles they represented.

            By the way, if you knew history, you’d know that fascism has always been associated with progressivism and the American left, NOT the American right. It was American progressives that adored Hitler and Mussolini, not American conservatives. That’s a fact! Only post-WW II have progressives tried to rewrite their own diabolical historical connections to the tyranny of those tyrants!
            Mussolini shared letters with his friend FDR before they opposed each other in WW II. He referred to his friend FDR affectionately as “America’s Dictator”!
            FDR’s own children loved Joseph Stalin! They were ecstatic when they had the opportunity to travel abroad with the President to meet him because they had been taught to think of him as a hero. They were even taught to call him “Uncle Joe”. He slaughtered tens of millions of his own people, and American progressives thought of him as a hero! What does that tell us about the progressive President (FDR) in the White House that taught them that?
            Fascists during WW II were ALL socialists. Mussolini labelled himself as a “life-long socialist”. If you knew any real history, rather than the re-written propaganda of progressives, you would know that fascism IS left-wing, NOT right-wing! Fascism has ALWAYS been associated with the American left! Fascism is NOT conservatism! It is collectivism, and it always has been! That’s not only history! It’s FACT!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1219000860 John Mulholland

      Tyler, do you have any proof of corruption on this map?  If you do I would like to hear it.

      • Anonymous

        Yeah pushing a new map at 8:15 pm the night of is pretty corrupt

        • JJL9

          I don’t think the time of day is really relevant. They have been working and working and pushing and pushing and that’s when they came to an agreement.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            It was drawn in a closed caucus (closed to public, media, and Democrats in the legislature – in contrast the Dem’s caucus was entirely open, and several GOP legislators came and went throughout it), and then when presented they went on about how great it was because it had been publicly vetted and was what the citizens wanted. It hadn’t ever been publicly vetted because there was only about an hour and a half from it first being seen EVER to being passed by the full legislature and sent to the Governor. It ISN’T what the people want, because every time they are asked they beg for separate rural and urban districts, not a merger. Rural areas don’t want to be lumped with urban, and urban don’t want to be lumped with rural. Both sides were used as a political football to score points.

          • Frank

            Tyrell, you say the “people” as if all the people were of your opinion.  There were “people” who supported the concept of combining urban and rural into each district.  These latter “people” won their opinion.  Again, in a republic, the people elected the representatives to make the final decisions.  Your “generalizations” carry little weight because they don’t represent all the voters’ positions.   But you are welcome to generalize all you want, just know that that is what you are doing.

      • Anonymous

        yes, it’s really pretty obvious to anyone with a partisan mind for it.

    • JJL9

      Tyler, what exactly was hypocritical here? How is the map terrible? How is it an injustice?

    • Frank

      You make a lot of innuendos, but support them with no data; how is this map terrible? How is it an injustice?  In a republic, the electorate chooses its representative.  The US is a republic not a democracy, where the people have a direct say in everything that is done.  The representatives, elected by the people, make the final decisions.  if you don’t like the representatives, then support someone who supports your positions.

  • http://twitter.com/bobaagard Bob Aagard

    EVERY article I read about the public redistricting hearings said that Utah Citizens didn’t want urban-rural mixed districts.  Those sediments were especially stron in rural Utah.  Yet that’s what we got.  What good is “transparency” if you don’t listen to people and draw things behind closed doors?

    • Kraigthorne

      It is my fault as well as Fair Boundaries.  I had a plan to organize the four biggest Republican Central Commities and force a vote on what they want the districts to look like.  I did not do this and for that I am sorry.  The four biggest Republican Central Commities decide who gets the republican nomination for over 75% of the Utah House and Senate as well as the Governor. 

      Fair Boundaries is at fault, because they NEVER did anything to get Republicans to join them.  On the other hand they recruited at every Democratic event they could.

      • Anonymous

        So people shouldnt get involved in the process?

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=682399012 Carina Kuesterman Dillon

        Fair Boundaries DID try to get Republicans to join (one of the founders of FB is a former Republican State Representative!), but the State GOP put a smackdown on its members. Here in Tooele, where redistricting is a HUGE issue, our GOP county chair was initially a vocal supporter of FB, but as soon at the state party clamped down, he backed off and took the rest of the county party with him– giving the line that now that Tooele was more Republican, he’d been assured by top brass that we would get a majority-Tooele state senate seat and at least one more majority-Tooele state house seat. Instead, we got screwed.

      • Frank

        You misunderstand how candidates get on the ballot in the state of Utah.  The Central Committees don’t make the decisions.  Everyone of us is invited to attend their party caucuses.  You can be elected to the a delegate to the state or county political party of your choice.  Then at the county and state conventions you and the other delegates select the candidates that will be placed on the ballot.

    • Anonymous

      Every article you read?

      There’s your first problem.

    • Anonymous

      Every article you read?

      There’s your first problem.

    • Anonymous

      Every article you read?

      There’s your first problem.

    • Frank

      There were public hearings; you were allowed to express your opinions by contacting your representative.  You have the final say at the ballot box by electing someone closer to your thinking.  The representives, elected in the last election by the majority, exercised their perogative to make a decision on this issue.   

  • Zooms keeper

    Really, Utah is a mix of rural and urban areas – more so than any other state in the union. Should we not split our reps between the two? Shouldn’t we have areas in which the elected officials can reasonably visit, or at least understand the issues on both the city and country side of the fence? I read some posts complaining that St. George and Vernal are in the same district, yet the same people would have a bull’s eye which would place ALL of rural Utah (everything but the cities from Brigham to Spanish Fork) within one district. How the heck can one person possibly understand that much geography, let alone the different issues inherent with each different area? To SLC: please don’t treat me in southern Utah like a fly-over state, which is the most which we will ever receive from the national elected leaders which will always treat us like a rash: scratch now and then – and always ignore as soon as possible.

    • Jmightymouse

      Amen!  Feel the same way.

  • Miguel Jimenez-Herrera

    Corrupt bastards! This map is nothing but a Republican ploy to take all 4 congressional seats. It only ensures that urban and rural REPUBLICANS will be represented in Washington. But on the bright side: most Tuesdays through Thursdays for the next decade there will be 4 less tea-baggin nut-jobs within the boundaries of our Great State! It’s just too bad they’ll be in Washington “representing”…. America, PLEASE, don’t base any opinions about the intellect or character of our fellow Utahns on the bizarre antics of Chaffetz, Bishop, Wimmer, and ________ (insert tea-bagger w/ an 8th grade education level here)…. Shame on Lockhart! Shame on Waddoups! And Shame on the rest of the R’s for voting for this disgusting act of legislation. Someday they’re gonna push it too far, and lose it all….

    • Abclarke

      Absolutely correct, Miguel.  May I also point out that redistricting is going on in all 50 states right now, and that states with heavy Democratic majorities are just as busy gerrymandering Republicans out of existence.  You would really be a happier person if you moved to one of those states.  If you want to see some colossal gerrymandering, you should see some of the districts drawn in other states to assure the election of black and hispanic candidates.  Such states make this Utah map look totally logical.     
              Furthermore, I think you don’t know what “teabagging” is, or you wouldn’t put your name over such a comment.  I claim association with the TEA Party movement.  The unifying principle of the TEA Party is that we are all alarmed by the ruination perpetrated on our national economy by deficit spending.  We are absolutely livid about the times when Democrats promised to cut spending if Republicans would do their part by voting for a chunky tax increase first, then watching Democrats ignore their promise and just keep on increasing spending.  That’s why the TEA party wants only  spending cuts this time.                                                                           
           For decades, Democrats controlled Congress via satisfying a loose coalition of interests which demanded federal funding of their programs.  The coalition comes apart when that can no longer be done.  As we watch European democratic socialist nations fall apart as they run out of other peoples’ money to spend, we become painfully aware that, unless we get control of our deficit situation, we will follow them on the road to ruin and dictatorship.  The TEA party rises in response to this urgent situation.  Of course, you will point out that Bush 43 (41 too, FYI) did their share of deficit spending.  There was plenty of complaint from conservatives then.  Our current president and his congressional allies have pushed spending beyond sustainability.  The TEA party exists to bring sense to Republicans or to start a third party.                     
              You need to drop the “teabagging” thing.  I’d flag that for obscenity if this site had flags.  

      • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

        Utahns should expect more from their fellow Utahns.  Redistricting activities elsewhere are completely irrelevant.

        Slang words take on their own meaning.  Your arrogance destroyed the credibility of your comment.

    • Abclarke

      Shame on everyone but Miguel.  What a MAN! (lol)

    • Anonymous

      Can’t make an argument without name-calling, huh? Thanks for revealing your (lack of) character to us, Miguel!

      If you hate the people of Utah so much, why not leave? Welcome to Utah! Now go HOME!

    • Frank

      Miguel-  In a state where 65% of the electorate are republicans, the majority of us will be represented well.  In a republic, the majority always wins.  Voters in Utah are republican because they don’t support democratic party platforms; more government dependence, support for Gay Marriage, larger government.  Every new district is profiled with 60 to 65% republican just like the make-up of the state.  Why should 35% of the electorate get their own district?  That would be like awarding a football team the game if they led for only one quarter of the game.  Until Democrats provide a platform that doesn’t fly in the face of self sufficiency, support marriage between one man and one woman, and follow the US Constitition Article 10 which gives limited powers to the federal govement, the state of Utah will always be republican.   

  • Ghaslem

    whole lotta waah going on here. Have you guys got something else to do? Do you think republican legislators would really draw lines to favor dems? Repubs got elected folks. Them’s the apples

    • Miguel Jimenez-Herrera

      sorry we’re dissenting with legislation in this fascist sham of a “democracy” we call Utah… sorry if it hurts your feelings that we hate the government you (or your “party”) are running. (no one else would get on here and post some stupid shit like that) …. so, I ask you, kind lady or sir: don’t you have something better to do?? 

      • Abclarke

        Something better to do than bashing “brains” with foul-mouthed airheads?  I guess you’re right about THAT, buddy!  

        • Anonymous

          Can’t rebut, so you engage in name-calling? Who’s the airhead? The one who CAN make an argument, or the one who CAN’T!

      • Anonymous

        You words literally reek with hatred. Now I know your inspiration source, Miguel! It is NOT divine! (hint: It’s the OTHER guy!) Next thing, you’ll be feeling violent, and feeling justified. If so, there will be a prison cell awaiting your presence.

        • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

          Pot, meet kettle.

          Or have you already forgotten that you wrote, “Emperor Obama, the Commie in Chief”?

          • Anonymous

            I was speaking of the President, NOT a fellow commenter. YOU, on the other hand, and your political buddy, were referring to ME by disrespectful terms. There is NO expectation that Obama will EVER read my comment, but you DO have the expectation of people reading your comments.

            My characterizations of Obama are because of HIS policies. His impositions of policies by executive order that he couldn’t get approved by his own Democrats in the Senate are a manifestation of his imperial nature. His policies, almost without exception, are ALL Marxist in nature. Find and read Karl Marx’ policy recommendations. Obama is imposing ALL of them. Obama IS a Marxist. That is an accurate representation of his policies!

            Get your hand our of the pot, because it’s making you just as black as any kettle!

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            So essentially what you are arguing is that it’s entirely fine to slander people you don’t like, but how dare anyone do it back to you? Why can’t we ALL just realize that everyone ought to be treated with respect (as the religion you claim to follow teaches HEAVILY) and follow the golden rule (again, taught by your church). I would like you to go and read your own Bible again – judge not lest ye be judged.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            So essentially what you are arguing is that it’s entirely fine to slander people you don’t like, but how dare anyone do it back to you? Why can’t we ALL just realize that everyone ought to be treated with respect (as the religion you claim to follow teaches HEAVILY) and follow the golden rule (again, taught by your church). I would like you to go and read your own Bible again – judge not lest ye be judged.

        • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

          Wow, reading through all of your comments throughout here, it scares me how utterly brainwashed you’ve been.

          This right here is exactly WHY the legislature knows they can get away with this sham, because they have robots around the state who will defend these indefensible acts to the death, without EVER looking at any of it objectively, because the “other guys” are evil and can never be right.

    • Miguel Jimenez-Herrera

      PS, using past gerrymandering as an excuse for further gerrymandering isn’t exactly a logical argument. Yes, Republican’s control over 75% of legislative seats (which under your logic, should give Democrats at least one seat in Congress….), but that 75% figure is not representative of the total population of voting age Utahn’s, that number is much closer to 62/34 (based on the results of the last presidential elections).  The 75% merely reflects past gerrymandering successes, and I’m guessing that after this next election we’ll see that number grow…. and the Church of Utah will take another page in the history books.

      • Anonymous

        You seem to conveniently forget or dismiss the gerrymandering in Democrat-controlled states. Why aren’t you complaining to them? Why? Why not move to one of those states, Miguel? Perhaps you’d be happier in a state where socialism rules and equal misery for all is the rule. Try Chicago, from whence comes Emperor Obama, the Commie in Chief!
        I moved from California. I voted with my feet. Feel free to do the same. Don’t let the door hit you in the behind on the way out!

        • Sbracken007

          I was born and raised in Utah. I have pioneer heritage–This is MY PLACE.  Don’t tell me to move if I don’t like it.  I have more right to want my state to become more unified not partisan than a CALIFORNIA  TRANSPLANT has to want it a red theocracy.  What is wrong with wanting people to hear all sides and work together?  And while your at it, how about arguing your point in an adult manner without childish name calling.  And BTW, your callous disrespect for YOUR president is embarassaing…you show your ignorance and immaturity by lowering the discussion the such rude unnecessary name-calling.

          • Anonymous

            I’m no California transplant! I was raised in Utah. I was transplanted TEMPORARILY to California. I voted with my feet and returned to Utah because I like the environment here better.
            But if you aren’t satisfied with Utah as it is, you can do what I did — LEAVE — and find someplace more suited to your ideology of tyranny or freedom, whatever happens to suit you!

            You show YOUR own “ignorance and immaturity” by making FALSE assumptions and false charges against me. But that only reveals YOUR character, not MINE!

            By the way, in my comment to which you replied, you are the disrespectful one — toward me. You’ve self-labelled yourself a hypocrite. I doubt the Campaigner in Chief cares or reads this web page. I have no obligation to him. All of the titles I would give to him are reflective of his true nature and ideology. You, on the other hand, have full expectation that I would read and respond to YOUR name-calling and disrespectful labels! If you are looking for a disrespectful person, go look in the mirror! You suffer from what my niece, a psychologist with a Master’s degree in psychology, refers to as psychotic projection.

          • Waterlogs

            my geooddd, were you toilet trained at gunpoint or what??  chill out or you’ll end up on medication, all that negative vibe will get you….

          • Anonymous

            Please learn to follow your own advice! Poddy is in the rear!

        • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

          Many people DO decry gerrymandering, even if it’s by their own party. Take a look at all of the Republicans denouncing this map! I also think that Illinois, New York, and (previously) California did this to a horrible extreme. Now California has the non-partisan citizen’s committee drawing their maps, and the new districts as much fairer to everyone involved. Utah should adopt something similar. This committee is blatantly non-partisan, only has regular citizens on it with no elected officials, and specifically couldn’t look to partisan data (registered voter #s, registered party identifcation, etc.) or the current addresses of the current members. This map, completely unintentionally, of course, has a district that fits perfect for Bishop, one perfect for Chaffetz, one perfect for Wimmer, and one that has Matheson placed into a district he has no chance of winning.

          • Anonymous

            To the contrary! Committees are appointed. They are UNaccountable to citizens or to people who vote. What they are NOT is nonpartisan! You can’t possibly make the case that people who sit on a committee that didn’t run for office as going to be LESS partisan. Only a dead corpse is truly nonpartisan. Everyone else has their biases and their perspectives. Committee members have their views and biases too. What you really want to people who are NOT accountable, rather than nonpartisan. That’s mob rule, not people’s rule! No thanks! I want people to make those decisions to be held accountable!

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Take a look at the actual process the California committee took this year and educate yourself before you spew any more word vomit.

          • Anonymous

            “The Citizens Redistricting Commission, built upon a hopeful ideal of enhancing political competition in legislative and congressional districts, has now descended into a cesspool of corruption, and the promise of fair new districts has been compromised by brutal partisan politics instigated by the commission itself.”

            How’s that for word vomit?http://caivn.org/article/2011/06/01/californias-not-so-non-partisan-redistricting

          • Anonymous

            And regarding Virginia:

            “May this escapade be a lesson to those who yearn for less partisanship in politics that faceless functionaries and bureaucrats do not necessarily act for good governance reasons act as partisan without electoral consequences. We live in a democratic Republic where we hold our representatives responsible for their actions not a bureaucracy manipulated by partisan jackasses.”http://dcbarroco.blogspot.com/2011/03/making-mockery-of-non-partisan.html

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Take a look at the actual process the California committee took this year and educate yourself before you spew any more word vomit.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Take a look at the actual process the California committee took this year and educate yourself before you spew any more word vomit.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Take a look at the actual process the California committee took this year and educate yourself before you spew any more word vomit.

          • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

            Take a look at the actual process the California committee took this year and educate yourself before you spew any more word vomit.

        • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

          Utahns should expect more from their fellow Utahns.

  • Miguel Jimenez-Herrera

    I can hardly wait for the day that this state is 50% republican/mormon minus 1…. meaning THEY will finally be the minority! It’s inevitable, and it’s coming soon!! ha ha ha! YEAH! 

    • Anonymous

      They don’t realize how soon. They had to jimmy it so bad now just to maintain control

    • Anonymous

      Miguel: that day has already come, over and over and over again.  The LDS church only claims 60% of the population.  That leaves 40% of the voting population as non-LDS (if you fail to consider the number of non-voter-age children the LDS typically have which would make the % of non-LDS voter higher).

      Less than 33% of those eligible to vote in Utah during the last Presidential election bothered to do so.  Even if ALL of them were LDS and they ALL voted Republican, the non-LDS could STILL HAVE OUTVOTED THEM!  All they had to do was get off the couch and go vote.

      My point . . . STOP WHINING!

    • Anonymous

      Your bigotry and hatred reveal your true nature! Thanks for letting us know who you really are! Perhaps you’ll be happier in the People’s Republic of California. Sink or swim, California!

      And I’m not even a Republican!

      • high uintas

        As long as we’re talking history, maybe you could go back in time and tell your prophet that raising a private army might not go over in some states. I agree that Mormon’s were treated poorly and unfairly in the past, but that is the past and now learning to live with one another should be more important than retribution.

        Californians are just as mixed a people as any other state, to claim they are “the People’s Republic” is silly. My extended Mormon family lives there, do you hate them too? Too much Rush and Faux News is bad for the brain, IMO.

    • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

      >> . . .it’s coming soon. . .

      Not soon enough.

  • WendyLovely

    Hello.  I am an idiot.  I love to make people’s vote in Utah not count.  That’s why I fully support districting liberal Salt Lake City with Southern Utah.  I am proud to be a Utahan because the only people’s opinions that matters are my own. 

  • Curtis Haring

    This map is awesome, you can drive to all four districts in 15 minutes! Way to go you guys, you screwed us over and still pretend to take the high road.

    • http://www.facebook.com/jesse.d.harris Jesse Dominic Harris

      You can drive through all three current districts in less time. What’s your point? What does proximity have to do with anything?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DW54EKHDL5IRZ6G45TUYJ7J5QI Scott Christian Bauer

    The Salt Lake Tribune is reporting this plan passed the legislature tonight and is being sent to the governor for his signature. This was one of the worst plans I’ve seen. Today I am ashamed to live in a state where such bullheaded partisanship demonstrated by the Republican majorities in both chambers has prevailed against the persistent outcries of a majority of the state’s residents. Ashamed indeed!

    • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

      Calls and electronic messages to the Guv’s office demanding that he VETO this bill may be in order.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DW54EKHDL5IRZ6G45TUYJ7J5QI Scott Christian Bauer

        I JUST DID! EVERYONE OPPOSED TO THIS PLAN SHOULD CALL THE GOVERNOR’S OFFICE AT (801) 538-1000 – THEY’RE KEEPING A TALLY SHEET OF CALLS FOR THE GOVERNOR!!!

  • WayneVT

    I am a registered and voting Republican. I disagree with the map and the concept of “urban-rural” mix. The strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture. 

    The Republican party has insulted me and every Utahn by holding closed caucuses on this subject. What is the big secret, other than possibly wanting to reach agreements without others (i.e. the public) knowing their stated motivations? Transparency followed by closed caucuses is worse than no transparency at all. It gives the “sound bite” of transparency but assures that decisions are made behind closed doors.’

    Governor Herbert, President Waddoups and Speaker Lockhart should be ashamed of this partisan, “keep the good old boys in power” outcome. Is continuing the Republican stranglehold on power really more important than ensuring every voice is heard and represented? Crony-ism and nepotism in the Republican party have given credibility to the saying that “Absolute power corrupts absolutely”. Unless they speak up and bring more balance to the Utah two-party system, they have lost my support and the support of many Republicans in this state. 

    • Anonymous

      The strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture?What is that even supposed to mean? By that reasoning we should send four congressmen from Utah with the same message, the message that represents the majority of Utahns, right? You wouldn’t want to dilute the mixture by sticking one Democrat in there would you?
      More to the point, why should that particular minority special interest group be entitled to their own little carve-out? As if the only difference between anyone in Utah is whether they are a Democrat or a Republican?Why shouldn’t real estate agents get their own representative? I mean seriously, the strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture.

    • Anonymous

      The strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture?What is that even supposed to mean? By that reasoning we should send four congressmen from Utah with the same message, the message that represents the majority of Utahns, right? You wouldn’t want to dilute the mixture by sticking one Democrat in there would you?
      More to the point, why should that particular minority special interest group be entitled to their own little carve-out? As if the only difference between anyone in Utah is whether they are a Democrat or a Republican?Why shouldn’t real estate agents get their own representative? I mean seriously, the strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture.

    • Anonymous

      The strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture?What is that even supposed to mean? By that reasoning we should send four congressmen from Utah with the same message, the message that represents the majority of Utahns, right? You wouldn’t want to dilute the mixture by sticking one Democrat in there would you?
      More to the point, why should that particular minority special interest group be entitled to their own little carve-out? As if the only difference between anyone in Utah is whether they are a Democrat or a Republican?Why shouldn’t real estate agents get their own representative? I mean seriously, the strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture.

    • Anonymous

      The strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture?What is that even supposed to mean? By that reasoning we should send four congressmen from Utah with the same message, the message that represents the majority of Utahns, right? You wouldn’t want to dilute the mixture by sticking one Democrat in there would you?
      More to the point, why should that particular minority special interest group be entitled to their own little carve-out? As if the only difference between anyone in Utah is whether they are a Democrat or a Republican?Why shouldn’t real estate agents get their own representative? I mean seriously, the strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture.

    • Anonymous

      The strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture?What is that even supposed to mean? By that reasoning we should send four congressmen from Utah with the same message, the message that represents the majority of Utahns, right? You wouldn’t want to dilute the mixture by sticking one Democrat in there would you?
      More to the point, why should that particular minority special interest group be entitled to their own little carve-out? As if the only difference between anyone in Utah is whether they are a Democrat or a Republican?Why shouldn’t real estate agents get their own representative? I mean seriously, the strongest voice for each comes from a concentrated effort, not diluted by the mixture.

    • Frank

      Wayne-  The concept behind the urban rural mix is to ensure that each representative has a “dog in the hunt” as far as managing how involved the federal government should be in our public lands.  70% of Utah is under the control of the Federal Goverment, probably the highest percentage in the country.  This is problematic to all of us.  Our lands are being managed from New York, California, and Washington DC, not from Utah.  If you are an environmentalist, then you are probably delighted, but if you want responsible land usage then you would not be happy.  In Utah 65% of registered voters are republicans– how do you propose balancing the two-party system when most of us don’t support the platforms of the democratic party?

  • UniversityChiq

    This is so irritating. 1. Shady business being conducted behind closed doors  2. Agreeing with below: Urban dwellers did not want rural mixing  3. GOP manipulating their odds for voting success. Total and utter clustercuss. DEMS–Sue ‘em!

  • Chris

    Yuck…

  • NC

    I am very disappointed with the final map.  Citizens have said over and over that they wanted to keep their communities together in this process.  Now we have three districts in SL County where many maps only had two.  Cities like Farmington/St. George, Millcreek/Moroni are in the same district.  Many, many, many cities split into two districts.  I don’t see how Republicans chose this map over many better alternatives.

    • xohdis

      It is impossible to put SL county into one district.  It HAD to be split… if you don’t like it, run for the Legislature.

      • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

        Everyone knows this, and in fact NC mentioned it. He said that many maps had it split into only two pieces, while this one carves it up into 3. Read comprehension is your friend.

        And you conveniently ignored the fact that NC mentioned VERY different and far-away cities such as Farmington and St. George and Millcreek and Moroni being in the same district, and that LOTS of cities in Salt Lake and Utah Counties are split, such as Spanish Fork, Payson, Santaquin, Lehi, etc.

        And my personal favorite, Sanpete County is split in half. It’s a very low population county that is very homogenous and SHOULD be together (as it is in literally every other map proposed by either side throughout this entire process), but this map puts Moroni, Fairview, Mt. Pleasant and the rest of the northern part of the County separate from Ephraim and Manti and the souther part of the County.

        • Anonymous

          That is absurd and contrary to the way congressional maps are drawn throughout the country. This map is positively gorgeous from a continuity viewpoint, and splits up your largest urban area, wisely. Why separate the citizens of SLC into a non-representative urban district in one of the most rural states in the U.S.?

          Look at the mess Democrats make of district maps where they control the state legislatures and you’ll see what a gerrymandered political map looks like. This isn’t one.

      • Anonymous

        Given that Salt Lake County has approximately one third of the state’s population, they should have had one full district plus a good portion of another one. Instead they have none.

    • Anonymous

      Citizens have said over and over that they wanted to keep their communities together in this process?

      How is that even relevant? Either there is a principled way to redistrict or there is not. But your unscientific polling of “citizens” has no relevance whatsoever.

      I would submit to you that there is no basic principle that makes one map preferable to another. If there is, what is the principle?

      • Anonymous

        Exactly right, jjl. Since when to individual citizens get to decide on congressional district maps? And what exactly does “keep their communities together” mean, anyway?

    • Anonymous

      Citizens have said over and over that they wanted to keep their communities together in this process?

      How is that even relevant? Either there is a principled way to redistrict or there is not. But your unscientific polling of “citizens” has no relevance whatsoever.

      I would submit to you that there is no basic principle that makes one map preferable to another. If there is, what is the principle?

    • Anonymous

      Citizens have said over and over that they wanted to keep their communities together in this process?

      How is that even relevant? Either there is a principled way to redistrict or there is not. But your unscientific polling of “citizens” has no relevance whatsoever.

      I would submit to you that there is no basic principle that makes one map preferable to another. If there is, what is the principle?

  • Zig

    This map is Pathetic!  You Republicans should be ashamed of yourselves.

    • Jmightymouse

      It was dems too dude!  So quit your bellyaching!

      • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

        Prove your statement, or Shut The Fluff Up.

      • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

        Dems opposed this map, and only one in the entire legislature voted for it. They were locked out of the process.

      • Zig

        Jmightymouse, you look more like a lame troll. Can you back up your statement with any facts? I didn’t think so.

  • Anonymous

    I see…so who is representing what district?  Which district is the 4th District?  I guess I’m stupid or something, but I don’t get it?  If I’m in the “Dimmer” (aka Wimmer) district….I’m moving!  He’s an idiot…but then again, most of those in office are idiots anyway.

    • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

      The new fourth district (the one with southwestern SL County, western and central-southern Utah County, eastern Juab County, and northern Sanpete County is the “Wimmerhole.”

  • Dave

    Exactly right Bob.  What a mess.  Well, next year is an election year.  Our State Legislature needs some new faces.

  • Anonymous

    Fascinating reading all the griping. Politics being what it is, the only way the liberal Democratic advocates in Utah would be happy with the new Congressional district map is if they could draw it up themselves and skew it in their favor. Elections have consequences, and the current map does not represent corruption, sinister plotting, or any other of the histrionic allegations currently being shouted about. It’s just politics. Of course, all the loud posturing by the opposition is just politics too. Let’s move on. Rep. Matheson has already demonstrated that it’s possible to win in a supposedly demographically unfavorable district if you represent the people and the State’s interests well. We need more like him. We’ve got many more serious issues on our plate. The districts are drawn, let’s get to work.

    • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

      In a state where religion plays such a huge role in society, one almost might expect so-called Christians to follow the widely respected principle formally known as the Ethic of Reciprocity, also know as The Golden Rule.

    • Anonymous

      If you’re so confident that Mr. Matheson can win in a “demographically unfavorable district”, then why the tizzy fit? Put your theory to the test! Let him run!

      I’m GLAD that Matheson will now be running in my town. I can now vote FOR the other person instead. Before, I couldn’t!

  • Rustylion1026

    You can make your voices known when you vote, buy voting every single one of the idiots that pushed this though out of office, and if Herbert signs it then he must go too!

  • Anonymous

    so this whole thing was just a big joke on the constituents that live in salt lake city, who moved there, because it WAS a democratic voice in the middle of a huge state where there is no voice?

    • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

      A One Million Dollar joke, to be specific.

  • Jmightymouse

    I LOVE the urban rural split.  The Dems keep saying representing all of Utah is only the job of Senators.  What a joke!  You mean to tell me Congressional Representatives aren’t supposed to REPRESENT more Utahns?  And this is not them representing all of Utah anyway.  Notice there are FOUR area.

    • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

      You have been hooked by the idealistic but totally unrealistic assumption that representatives will give rural voters (who comprise about 25% of Utahns) the same level of attention as suburban and urban voters.  Rural voters are outnumbered and potentially out-contributed 3 to 1.  Do the math.  Follow the money.  25% of the population should be represented by 25% of the congressional delegation.

      • Anonymous

        That’s an absurd notion! Rural voters live all over the state! If you are complaining about gerrymandering, imagine if they put all rural voters in one district. The map would look like it had been hit with a shotgun blast, with a few here and a few there. You could be in one district, your neighbor could be in another, and the person 300 miles to the south might be in EITHER of them!

        The best way to ensure that rural voters have a voice is to make sure there are enough of them in EVERY district that all 4 Congressional representatives will have to represent their interests. Well lo and behold, that’s just about what we’ve got here on this map!

        • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

          Your personal attack demonstrates that you have absolutely no credibility.

        • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

          Alright, I’m from Levan, about as rural as it gets. I wish we could have had an all-rural district circling all-urban districts. I don’t feel represented well by a Representative from the Wasatch Front – because that’s what he focuses on.

          You said yourself “As if a person from Sandy has the best interest of rural voters at heart.” Well this map dooms rural areas all over the state to be represented by people from Sandy or other urban cities! You’re beign entirely hypocritical by saying that Sandy citizens can’t understand rural needs, but acting as if a Representative from the Wasatch Front will do a FANTASTIC job representing these rural needs, that you yourself said they won’t have their interests at heart.

    • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

      Having worked for Rep. Chaffetz in the current urban-rural split third district, I can personally assure you that even if they WANT to represent the rural areas (which I truly believe Jason wishes to do), they tend to focus entirely or nearly entirely on the urban areas, because that’s where the people (and money for campaigns) is. This urban-rural myth is just that: a myth. While perhaps it may look good to some on paper, it simply does not work at all in practice.

      If the rural areas had an entirely or nearly entirely rural district with a representative dedicated to SOLELY their needs, this one representative could accomplish a lot more for the rural areas than 4 representatives pretending to care about them.

  • Rustylion1026

    DEMAND a better map! Contact Gov.Gary Herbert gherbert@utah.gov 801-538-1000 800-705-246, Let Herbert know this is wrong and he should not sign it…

  • Anonymous

    It’s about time! Let’s get on with business!

  • Anonymous

    Lots of sour grapes demonstrating their sour natures here today! Eat your grapes!

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  • salty dog

    gerrymandering at its worst

  • Utahn

    I LOVE THE MAP!  Utah is not “Salt Lake City” then “The rest of the state”.  It is one state.  We have this problem where Salt Lake City doesn’t think itself as part of Utah, and the old districting reflected that.  People outside Salt Lake City don’t like people inside Salt Lake City and vis-versa.   We had one district that was polar opposite than the rest of the state.  This new map moves in the direction to correct that problem.  Utah is one state,  and we should start thinking of ourselves as one state, not rural and urban but Utahn. 

    • http://twitter.com/tyrellaagard Tyrell Aagard

      While we ARE one state, there are wide differences between different areas of the state. Salt Lake County has roughly half of the entire population, but you’d never know that based on this map. We are a heavily urban state, with 75% of our population living along the Wasatch Front. With 75% of the population, would it not make sense for 75% of the districts to be in the same area? Instead, this map purposely splits up not only similar cities (Lehi/American Fork, Mt. Pleasant/Ephraim/Manti, etc.), but at least 15 cities themselves (Lehi, Payson, Santiquin, etc.) between 2 or more districts. It makes no sense to purposely split up similar areas that work well together. If anything, not only does Salt Lake County get screwed over, (heavily Republican) Utah County does as well in the strange way it is chopped up all over the place.

  • Anonymous

    Will be interesting to see the national take on this. Ten years ago they called it one of the most
    egregious abuses of gerrymandering in the country. I would bet my dismal annual salary that that map pales in comparison to this abuse of power. Everytime I think that we have sunk to the lowest common denominator, the legislature assures me that we still have a ways to go. Shame, shame on them! They have no sense of decency.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Justin-Caplin/692231000 Justin Caplin

    D.U.M.B. Why are Kanab and Panguitch with Salt Lake and Bountiful? Maybe in 2021 we’ll be able to have a coherent and representative map. Until then, I guess we’ll just have to make do.

  • Anonymous

    This Opinion piece by the Daily Herald sums up my feelings exactly: http://www.heraldextra.com/news/opinion/article_d4150f15-ac14-50ac-9c3e-50e43ae71db9.html

    • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

      Interesting commentary.  Thank you for posting the link.

    • Anonymous

      That headline is THE most silly and asinine thing I’ve ever seen. It, and those who would pander to it, denigrates all those who are true victims of “crimes against humanity”! To suggest that Congressional redistricting rises to the level of what Hitler, Stalin, and Mao did is reprehensible. Crimes against humanity? Since when have you seen your family members shot, or lived in a Soviet Gulag? Since when have your body been dumped in a mass grave in Pol Pot’s Cambodia? Since when have you been so persecuted by the legislature? Get a life — comrade!

  • Sbracken007

    I am disgusted and feel totally invisible to our “elected”  representatives.  There is absolutely no shame with them.  They have given the thought “voice of the people” a new definition: the people do not need a voice, we will be their voice.  You should be ashamed of yourselves, but as usual you will turn your backs and act like we, the citizens, don’t know what is best for us. I am truly sickened by what you have done and I hope that litigation may give us back our state.

    • Anonymous

      Just because you are in the minority doesn’t mean the elected representatives of the State are not listening! They’re listening to the MAJORITY — those who elected them! I like my State representative. He has been very friendly and responsive to me! They’re listening, just to those who put them there!
      What would you propose instead of a representative government? Rule by elitists? Czars like Obamao has appointed? World government? Rule by “committee” and imposed without ANY voice from the people? Mob rule? Elitist judges who have NO accountability to the people?

      It may not be what you wanted, but the people who make these decisions are elected by your fellow citizens. Just because you don’t LIKE what they do doesn’t mean that the rest of us should be subjected to whatever alternative tyranny you might prefer.

  • Anonymous

    Absolutely appalling is all i can think of when i see this map. It is clear that the legislature does not care about anything that the public says. Yet the people keep electing them because they have an R next to their name.

  • ksampow

    I think it is a good idea to try and keep rural voters together, but given the sparse population of rural areas, we would have had the “rural district” spread around most of the state outside of the Wasatch Front and Washigton County. For example: Kamas, Escalante, Randolph, Promontory, and Minersville all in one district?  That would be very impractical.  To get equal population in each district the major cities had to be split.

    • http://equalityandthegoldenrule.blogspot.com/ David from Sandy UT

      Approximately 75% of Utahns live in the area between Ogden and Provo.  The other 25% live in “rural” counties.  Some of the maps submitted by the public early in the process included almost all of the rural areas in one community-of-interest district.

      • Anonymous

        Does that mean we ALL have a right to our own little gated “community of interest”? That we ALL have a right to our own representative, one just for li’l ole me? That’s a very slippery slope. How about a representative just for school teachers? Or one for Nazis? Or one for left-wingers? Or one for every racial group?

        Ah, but that’s just it! What you really want is one to match your minority special interest, NOT to represent a specific “community”! You want to thwart the majority, and demand  a special place just for your minority special interest!

  • Anonymous

    Sandy is split right down the middle.  Were stuck with that little nazi JC. Voting straight party Democrate in the next election!

    • Anonymous

      Democrats ARE the party of Nazism! Liberals have always been ideological cousins of fascism. American progressives LOVED Hitler. He shared their ideology.That’s why they loved him! He was a socialist! He even chose the red field behind the swastika on the Nazi flag so it would attract communists to their cause. Hitler learned propaganda from American progressives. Hitler’s Nazis (and American progressives) were socialists! The letters N-A-Z-I are the German equivalent for the National SOCIALIST Worker’s Party. Mussolini referred to his pen pal FDR affectionately as “America’s Dictator”; they were friends until they ended up on opposite sides of WWII. FDR’s children referred affectionately to Joseph Stalin as “Uncle Joe”; they LOVED Stalin. The Nazis also practiced crony capitalism, just like today’s Hitler in the White House.

      If you are going to refer to Nazis, please compare them instead to their American ideological soul mates. Today, they’re called Democrats! Vote straight Democrat, and you’ll end up with MORE fascism, not less!

      • VIGGOE

        How deluded are you?  Hitler and the Nazis hated the Communists.  That’s one of the reasons he came to power, because the Germans were afraid that what happened in Russia would happen in Germany.  Also, you emphasize the Socialist in Nazi, but not the National.  This changes the entire meaning of the word.  They were not Socialists led be the workers and peasants.  The NAZI’s were led by the disillusioned middle class who felt betrayed after World War I and blamed Germany’s loss on the Jews and Communists.

  • Anonymous

    I hope Jim M. does run for GOV.  Even though I really don’t like him, I would help him all I can to get the Republican out of office.  Lesser of two evils.

    • Anonymous

      Ha ha! And you voted for Obama for the same reasons! “Hope and change” became “hoax and chains”! Germans voted to get rid of Weimar, too, and they ended up with a dictator named Adolf Hitler. You get what you deserve!

      Vote FOR principles, not AGAINST something. That’s the recipe for tyranny!

      • Anonymous

        Did not vote for Obama.  But atleast he is trying to do something while the rebublicans just keep trying to make him and the country fail.  You are obviously Republican, have your health care, a job, and are all set for life.  I have the same, but many don’t and it’s not necessarily their fault.  People need a voice, but with the Republican congress the way it is, if you don’t have money, you have no voice.  We need a balance of Dems and Repubs to get anything accomplished.  Keep it the same as it is, we get the same lousy results.  Obama was never the answer, but neither is the current administration.  Don’t bother responding as I already know the Rebublican crap you will spit back.

    • Anonymous

      I too hope that Jim M. runs for GOV because he won’t have a chance in Hell in winning AND we can focus on the primary race within the Republican party to find a good Rep, knowing that the general election is already won.

  • Anonymous

    I hope Jim M. does run for GOV.  Even though I really don’t like him, I would help him all I can to get the Republican out of office.  Lesser of two evils.

  • Anonymous

    This is absolutely atrocious!

  • Anonymous

    I’m perfectly fine with this map. It’s much more cohesive than many I’ve seen in other states. Let’s call it the “wagon wheel” map. It fits both because of its general appearance and our state’s history!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DW54EKHDL5IRZ6G45TUYJ7J5QI Scott Christian Bauer

    I just called the governor’s office to voice my extreme displeasure with this plan passed by the legislature last night and recommend Governor Herbert veto it. The lady I spoke with said they’re keeping a tally of all calls for the governor on this issue. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND EVERYONE OPPOSED TO THIS PLAN CALL THE GOVERNOR’S OFFICE AT (801) 538-1000 AND TELL THE GOVERNOR TO VETO IT! ADD YOUR SENTIMENTS TO THE TALLY SHEET BEING PREPARED FOR GOVERNOR HERBERT!

  • Solutionadvantage

    I am so sick of the Good Ole Boys Network Mormons which most should have their membership in question because of their actions…. What about the people for the people!!!! It is high time to get back to the basics and pull up our boot straps and work together whether we are republican or democrats or Mormons! Be fair and make sure we get some better representation.

  • Solutionadvantage

    I am so sick of the Good Ole Boys Network Mormons which most should have their membership in question because of their actions…. What about the people for the people!!!! It is high time to get back to the basics and pull up our boot straps and work together whether we are republican or democrats or Mormons! Be fair and make sure we get some better representation.

  • http://tinyurl.com/2g9mqh Holden Green

    Pretty crazy that although my brother and parents live in the same county (parents in the same city), we will be represented by 3 different individuals.  

    I live in District 4 –  Salt Lake City south sugarhouseMy parents are in district 2 – Capitol Hill Area
    My brother lives in Sandy and is in district 3

    • Anonymous

      The boundary lines have to be somewhere, and no matter where they are you can cross them in one step. You make it sound like living in the same county should somehow automatically unite you. Does everyone in your county agree on everything? Vote the same? Of course they don’t. Why would living in the same county as someone else somehow dicate automatically that you should be in the same district?

      • http://tinyurl.com/2g9mqh Holden Green

        You are correct.  Living in the same county does unite us.  We share the same transit authority, drive on the same roads, have a Unified Fire and Police authority, and dozens of other shared services at a county level.  Even more shared services at a city level.  

        I don’t care about the grazing rate the BLM charges ranchers in Castledale any more than a guy in Castledale cares about the rate to ride UTA from Sugarhouse to Sandy. 

        Unless maps are drawn along naturally occurring boundaries (rivers, mountain ranges, etc.) drawing maps along existing municipal borders insures that no matter who’s an R and who’s a D…at least we’re paying attention to the same issues. 

        • Anonymous

          Your understanding of politics is typical. Everybody fighting for their own sepcial interests. Sorry, but I don’t adhere to that nonsense.

          A legislator or congressman who relies on the most basic of principles will vote exactly the same every time, regardless of where he is from and who his constituency is. 

      • VIGGOE

        Still, to divide individual cities in Salt Lake, Davis, and Utah counties does not make any sense.  Yes, the boundary has to be drawn somewhere, but look at a map and use a natural or municipal boundary, not just along I15 because it looks nice on a map.

  • Anonymous

    I can’t say that I like this map very much since it indicates that my friends in Enterprise are stuck in the same district as those living in the Avenues, which makes no sense since they have so little in common and at the same time those living in Sugar House are split asunder.  The Garber map offered a more balanced approach, only splitting the most populous county once, 

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  • Patrick Adamson

    Gerrymandering out the minority vote found in large cities is illegal. 

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  • Joel Nelson

    This entire discussion is proof positive that this process has been more transparent than it has ever been.  If you think it could be more transparent, work on making it more transparent for next time we have to redistrict.  The legislature has passed this, as is their responsibility and stewardship.  It’s done, people.  Live with it and move on with your lives – it isn’t worth wasting any more time on.

    • VIGGOE

      The point is the redistricting committee heard months of public comment and then ignored it all and created and passed a map which had neither public input or public support.  Who was represented by that?

      • Joel Nelson

        Every single person in Utah has a representative in the Utah state house and the Utah state senate.  So in this case, everyone was represented.  Just because this map passed with neither public input nor public support does not make this map in some way less valid than any other map that was submitted. We live in a republic, not a democracy; therefore, our government is managed by our representatives, not by “public” input and support.  If you don’t like the form of government of our nation, you live in the wrong nation and nothing is stopping you from moving to a nation with a different form of government.  Personally, I like our form of government, even if I don’t always like the decisions made by our representatives.

        Claims of gerrymandering are also without merit.  There is no evidence that the political affiliation of constituents played any role in where the boundaries of the congressional districts were decided.  The fact that the population of the districts only varies by a single constituent is very impressive.  The votes on this bill were not only made by republicans, nor were they only made by democrats.  The thing we have to remember is that every representative has their own vote, and we should hold each individual responsible for their vote, not an entire political party.If you don’t like how your representatives voted, I recommend that you contact your representatives.  Any way around it, though I don’t like the fact that my U.S. Congressman changed to someone I would not have voted for, and who does not vote the way I like, I’m willing to honor the will of the Utah legislature and move forward, instead of bickering about the past.  If Governor Herbert chooses to veto the redistricting bill, that’s another story, because that’s in the future.  However, it does nobody any good  to gripe about the results of a perfectly ethical and legal (and transparent) process.

  • Parkernav

    Stupid!

  • Utah Citizen

    At least it is done.  Thank you for all your work.

  • Greg Zenger

    People have way too much time to do nothing

  • Sanfran76hip

    This is a disgrace. I have no interests on the state or national level being a Salt Laker with a person from say Utah Valley. Shame on you Utah Republicans. Why don’t you just give us in Salt Lake County what we want. Our own representation. 

  • Gentle opinions

    It’s interesting how much people are aware of what went on behind “closed doors”. Unfortunately, I can see both sides of the argument have merit (once you remove all the Republican/Democrat vitriolic hatred speech). I have voted for Matheson in the past, but his recent voting on issues important to me has soured my opinion on his ability to represent me. Anyway, I find it interesting how much hatred seems to be in these comments. Cheers to a good life, that’s my choice regardless of all the other stuff.

  • Asterisk

    Just shows the reactionary politic here in UT. And for a brief moment I thought it was changing. What a travesty that calls itself democracy. Sad. 

    • Joel Nelson

      Who calls this democracy?  Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.  Our form of government is a republic, not a democracy.  Thankfully.

  • Richard C. Shipp

    Looks good to me.  RCS

  • Hjmercadopr

    This entire issue is just a smoke-screen which goal is to create instability among Utah conservatives during this important election time. Conservatives unite; stay focused. Elect good CONSERVATIVE-Constitutional minded candidates. Keep Washington at check.

  • WendyLovely

    I’m noticing that the general consensus from these comments is
    that this map is totally unfair. 
    However, I am getting a kick out of reading a comment here and there
    from people trying to justify this map.  Really?!!
    Seriously?!!  Makes me wonder what other
    things you are able to so graciously rationalize throughout life, wouldn’t that
    be convenient.   Before we know it, this map is going to look
    like swiss cheese and there will still be people agreeing that our lawmakers
    must know what they are doing and we should just stand behind them regardless
    of their actions.  What’s next?

  • guess

    What is this? Salt lake county divided up four ways? that is some serious gerrymandering. shame on you Utah Republicans.

  • Anonymous

    What you seem to have here is a lot of liberal whining about the map splitting up the only Democrat/urban area into three districts, where Democrat votes will drown in a sea of rural Utah conservatism. Gosh…what a shame.

    I live in one of the many states which are, like Utah, almost entirely rural and conservative, but are run by a criminally corrupt mob of filthy urban Democrats — Illinois. Look at the map of Illinois voting in our last Governor race, and you will understand why the proposed Utah map is so perfect and proper:  http://elections.nytimes.com/2010/results/governor

    Quinn won two counties out of 102. One is the East St. Louis ghetto and the other is Crook County, home of Chicago. If you want the urban crook Democrats running Utah, go ahead and make SLC a single district. If you want fair representation in congress, divide it up like they have proposed.

  • Davenewwest1

    great map- maybe you could put which district is which

  • 1Commonsensus

    So….there will absolutely not be fair representation in the state. Great…..I am sure it is what Jesus would be proud of.